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Courier Conversations
Weren't We Right About Hell?
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Is hell eternal conscious punishment, or will the unrepentant ultimately be annihilated? In this episode of Courier Conversations, Jeff Robinson and Travis Kerns examine the biblical doctrine of hell in response to renewed discussion sparked by Kirk Cameron and advocates of annihilationism.
Drawing from Scripture, the Baptist Faith and Message 2000, and the teachings of Jesus, they explore whether the Bible affirms eternal conscious torment or conditional immortality. Whether you’re a pastor, theologian, or Christian seeking clarity, this episode offers a thoughtful, Scripture-centered examination of one of the most sobering doctrines in Christianity.
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Welcome to Courier Conversations. I'm Jeff Robinson, and with me is my co-host Travis Kerns, and today we are talking about a uh topic that is sometimes controversial among evangelicals and has recently become so because of the uh podcast of the one of our favorite uh uh 80s TV shows, Kirk Cameron. Uh we're talking today, of course, about the doctrine of hell. Uh does scripture teach that we will that that those well we, I don't hope that the Lord saved me, but will the unregenerate, those who reject Christ, will they undergo eternal, literal eternal punishment for all of eternity consciousness? Next question. Or will they be at some point, either on the day of death or at some point annihilated? And that's the question that uh there are evangelicals out there, if you want to call them that, who do uh uh debate this, and it has become a matter, not so much debate, but I think a matter, wouldn't you say, Travis, of discussion uh in some of our circles over the past month?
Travis:Yeah, I don't think it's a matter of debate uh because I think debate would assume wider disagreement. I think this is a very small group of thinkers who really rely on one or two scholars or theologians here or there, uh, with Edward Fudge, I think, being probably the main one they're relying on. Um so yeah, I don't think it's a debate. I think it's more of a discussion. It's more of a it may even be a uh kind of a time of clarification uh for uh brothers in evangelicalism who are writing in theological circles. Um because debate I think is too strong. Discussion, sure. Right. Yeah.
Jeff:Well, this arose when I guess it's been close to a month now ago, when Kirk Cameron, who's uh evangelical apologist, I guess would be the right word. Uh always obviously a movie star, uh long been an evangelical presence in Hollywood, which we're very grateful for, was the star of Growing Pains, uh, one of my favorite shows back in the day, back when I was in high school and in college. And uh you weren't in high school and college.
Travis:No, I was still uh not born yet. That's right.
Jeff:You were born fifty years too late, but we'll get into that later. Uh but um uh so you know he uh his son raised this question on the podcast, and he has come to what seems to be maybe not a subtle conclusion, but leaning toward embracing the doctrine of annihilationism.
Travis:Yeah, and and a month ago he released a YouTube video we're wrong about hell, 277,000 views. A week later released one, was I wrong about hell uh with 363,000 views. And that's only YouTube, that doesn't take into account podcasts hits or anything like that. Yeah.
Jeff:So uh that raises the really only the really question, the really the only question we care about here is what does the Bible teach? And evangelicals overwhelmingly have believed that Scripture teaches clearly the uh eternal conscious torment uh for all eternity for those who reject Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. Uh that is my position, that is your position, that's the position of the seminary you and I studied in. Yep. And uh really Southern Baptists, I don't know that this has ever uh been a debate among conservative evangelical Southern Baptists.
Travis:Yeah, you know, it I was just looking here at the Baptist Faith and Message 2000 in Article 10, the Last Things. God in his own time and his own way will bring the world to its appropriate end according to his promise. Jesus Christ will return personally and visibly in glory to the earth. The dead will be raised, and Christ will judge all men in righteousness. And then this statement, the unrighteous will be consigned to hell, the place of everlasting punishment. So this the Baptist faith message is clear. Right. Uh this is not just um you know a partial time of punishment or it's not annihilationism, it's everlasting torment. Yeah.
Jeff:Well, and and um and and and so um I I've always had great respect for Kirk Cameron, so this is not this is not about Kirk Cameron so much as what does the Bible teach. And uh, but he's long been uh a presence, a Christian presence in Hollywood, been uh outspoken about the gospel. He and his uh sister, uh Candace Cameron Bure, uh both outspoken and have tried to bring reform to movies and and uh things like that, which I really appreciate. So I want to definitely want to say that, and uh I think he's someone to be taken seriously because he has a lot of followers and he's uh I think he's very serious about the gospel and serious about the things of God, uh, given what I know about him over the years. So uh, you know, we appreciate much of what he's done. Uh but uh and and one thing he said in the follow-up uh podcast a week later was that out there I'm not being I'm not being challenged biblically uh in the social media where I'm just being insulted. And uh that's too bad because uh what we want to do here is just look briefly at just some biblical text and things like that, ask what the scripture teaches, because we're not interested in personalities. Again, I have great respect for him as a person, as a man, as a Christian, and uh you and I talked about this right before we went on uh began to record here, uh, is this heresy uh to reject this doctrine or the doc the orthodox doctrine as we see it uh of uh of uh conscious torment, eternal conscious torment, and we'll talk about that here in a few minutes. But it is telling to me that the the the figure in Scripture, almost exclusively, who discusses the doctrine of hell as eternal torment is who?
Travis:Is Jesus.
Jeff:Yes.
Travis:No question. It's you know, we talked about this earlier as well. When he mentions the afterlife, twenty-five percent of his time discussing the afterlife is spent on heaven, seventy-five percent is spent on hell. Um so you have to ask yourself if Jesus talks about heaven as a place of eternal uh or as a state of eternal bliss, experiencing God's grace and his mercy, uh his peace, his holiness, his salvation for those who are found to be in Christ, then what about the time he spends talking about hell? Is Jesus schizophrenic? Is he lying, um or is he trying to make distinctions that the text doesn't make between eternal heaven and somewhat eternal or non-eternal hell? And that you just don't see that in the text anywhere, nowhere. So I would make a very simple argument if you believe Jesus on heaven, you have to believe him on hell.
Jeff:That's right.
Travis:Because there's no distinction made.
Jeff:And he talks a lot about so this is a very serious um core matter. Right? I mean, this this this this is not tertiary. Right. Uh again, is it heresy? Is it just what Tom Shriner, I always appreciate Tom's careful designation of these things. He distinguished between uh Tom Shriner, uh New Testament professor of Southern Seminaries, dear friend of both of us, uh distinguished between heresy and dangerous teaching. And I don't know, I can't speak for Tom, but this would seem to be given his framework fitted to dangerous teaching and not heresies, heresies or rejection of the gospel, core gospel uh teachings. Again, that's uh I'm not I'm not I don't know. I've thought a lot about that. I don't know if I've settled on that yet. I'd love I'd love to ask Tom about that. Um but uh except for James 3.6, and I write about this in my column this month in the Baptist Query, Hell is for real, uh my column grace and truth. Except for James 3.6, Jesus is the only person in the Bible to employ the word hell. Uh just a sampling. Matthew 5.22. This is a sampling. Uh whoever shall say you fool shall be guilty enough to go into the hell of fire. Of course, that's in the Sermon on the Mount. Um Jesus is uh correcting the Pharisees' interpretation of the moral law. Uh Matthew 5.29, 30, a little later, it is better for one, for you that one of your parts of your body perish than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. And that's a summary of what he says before that. If your your eye offended offends you, your right eye or your right hand, you know, tear it out, cut it off. Uh Matthew 10, 8, 28, do not fear those who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul, but rather fear him who is able to destroy the soul and body and hell. And of course they use Kirk Cameron and his son, sees on the language here, just able to destroy both body and soul. Yep. Destroy and kill the soul. So they use that as their their proof, part of their proof proof text. Uh Matthew 23, 33, you serpents, you brood of vipers, house or you escape the sentence of hell. Mark 9, 43, if your hand caused you to stumble, cut it off. It's better for you to enter life crippled than having your two hands to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire. And so John picks up on this, John the Revelator, in in Revelation, where um he's speaking of the the defeat of Satan at the end of time, at the last judgment. And in Revelation 20, verse 10, he says, And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. And then just a few verses later, he's speaking of the great white throne judgment, what I believe is the last judgment. There's you know, debate over that. We're not going to get into that for sure. Um verse 14, just again, just four or five, four and five verses after he speaks of Satan being thrown down and deceived the deceived uh and the beast thrown into uh the uh the the lake of fire and sulfur, then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire, he kind of you know he's uh building on this. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And of course he's speaking about the same lake of fire he was four verses earlier. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. So he uses that same phrase three times. And so to me, it's the unquenchable fire. Is there any reason not to make that connection?
Travis:Yeah, I I don't think there is. Um you know, and uh Kirk Cameron and his son are not making up something new. There's um as you hear studying really anything, there's nothing new under the sun. Uh so as I mentioned earlier, the um the person that Cameron and his son are drawing from is Edward Fudge, who writes a number of books in the 70s and 80s on the doctrine of hell, uh. And even writing into the 90s on the doctrine of hell. And he says in his book uh in a book where he's uh in discussion, the book is called Two Views of Hell, a Biblical Theological Dialogue. Fudge says this the Bible does not teach the traditional view of final punishment. Scripture nowhere suggests that God is an eternal torturer. It never says the damned will writhe in ceaseless torment, or that the glories of heaven will forever be blotted from by the screams from hell. The idea of conscious everlasting torment was a grievous mistake, a horrible error, a gross slander against the Heavenly Father, whose character we truly see in the life of Jesus of Nazareth. And this is where the Camerons pick up. Fudge says Scripture teaches instead that those who go to hell will experience, quote, everlasting destruction in the second death, for God is able to destroy both body and soul in hell. And so what they say is that destroying body and soul leads to then annihilation. So it's not eternal conscious torment, it's being separated from God by being destroyed, because your body and your soul are destroyed. In fact, in the first um YouTube video, uh Cameron's son argues, we just watched it a few moments ago, Cameron's son argues the soul is not necessarily everlasting. In my study, he says, I've never seen that the soul is everlasting, which brings significant problems for heaven if the soul is not everlasting. Right. Because at the um at the return of Christ, the body and the soul be reunited and made into a glorious new body. So if the soul is not everlasting, will that new body just not gain anything is in an empty glove? How does that work? Um But there doesn't seem to be a reason biblically for this. It seems to be more of a theological, uh almost emotional reason for not wanting to argue in favor of eternal conscious torment.
Jeff:Well, and and another I think another uh passage in the Gospels that powerfully refutes this uh this this notion is the parable of the rich man of Lazarus in uh Luke chapter 16. Uh this conversation between rich man and Lazarus who has died, a rich man has died and gone to hell, and Lazarus and poor beggar beggars in heaven. There's this conversation, this back and forth that goes on. And Jesus describes the rich man as in Hades being in torment. Uh he's not been annihilated. He's there, he's in torment. So this doesn't work uh at all if uh and this, you know, there's debate of the uh as to whether or not this is a parable and all the you know the details, and but we're not here to discuss the details. But I think uh at the very least it does argue uh in favor of uh eternal conscious torment. Um and and that's how we believe that doctrine. And and I get it. Um you know, it it's it's hard, it's hard to talk about. Uh and you you and I, I think you you quoted this scholar as saying basically nobody really believes that anymore, nobody preaches that anymore. And they cited Edwards, I want to quote him here in a few minutes.
Travis:So I mean, yeah, in fact, he uh he says um uh fudge quotes from Jonathan Edwards preaching on hill. In fact, he says when Edwards preached on hill, quote, colonial Americans sometimes fainted with fright, uh which yeah, if you've read Centers of Henry, name your God. Um quotes from Spurgeon Preaching on Hill. And then he says uh this style of preaching is now in rapid decline. Uh and in another book uh that Fudge writes, entitled The Fire That Consumes, um he says uh in the public square, quote, in the public square, fire and brimstone are definitely out of vogue. Of course. It's never been in vogue. Aaron Powell It's never been in vogue to talk positively about or in any way, shape, or form about eternal conscious torment. Yeah.
Jeff:Aaron Ross Powell I'm not sure it's ever been the hip thing to preach or talk about. And you know, and you you you preach, you're a preacher, I'm a preacher. It's not easy to preach on it, is it?
Travis:Trevor Burrus, Jr. No. It's not. Trevor Burrus, Jr.
Jeff:And the spiritual warfare that I experienced the and the many, many times I preached it uh is palpable often. Trevor Burrus, Jr.
Travis:Yeah, and to be honest, the worst for me, the worst time preaching about hell is at the funeral of an unbeliever. Trevor Burrus, Jr. That's right. And I've done plenty of those. Uh and it's never the family also always, always, always. Doesn't matter if the person was just a living scumbag. Right. After death, it's the person suddenly an angel uh who will be the next saint of the Catholic Church. Uh they always want you to promise them that the person's in heaven and you just can't do that. You don't want to stand up there like a jerk and say, well, this person right now is burning in hell, you know, enjoy the flames, buddy. No, that would be having to do that, yeah.
Jeff:Pastoral malfeasance. But I mean, one of the things I'll say in my column uh um about the historic Christian doctrine, which what what we believe I think is the uh in the historic confessions and uh early church fathers, certainly the reformers, uh certainly the Puritans who follow them uh in their train. Uh hell, just just a few reasons here why it's congruent with heaven and there's symmetry with everything else uh is taught in Scripture. Hell demonstrates the sinfulness of sin. That's how serious sin is. Uh one sin is treason against a holy God. Uh and it demonstrates, of course, the holiness of God. I mean, so uh I don't think that makes God a cruel despot of some kind, but it demonstrates the holiness of God, the sinfulness of sin. Um it also uh demonstrates uh uh or rather it gives pagans what they want. Because what what do what do pagans want? Well, they want to be as far away from God as they can possibly get.
Travis:They want Romans 1.
Jeff:Right. And this gives it to them. It's like, okay, I mean, I'll admit, uh it it would not be nearly as harrowing to me to think about going out into eternity if I knew I'll just cease to exist, I will never know it. Then if I knew I was gonna be in the lake of fire for ever and ever and ever and ever, uh then uh I'm gonna be really daunted by that.
Travis:Yeah, you know, you also have uh Peter in 1 Peter 3, which I know is a very debated passage over what it means, but 1 Peter 3, 18, for Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that he might bring us to God, having been or yeah, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit. Then verse 19, in which also he went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison. So if those who die do not experience eternal conscious torment, and they are simply annihilated after a certain amount of time, um interestingly, then verse twenty, who once were disobedient when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, this is thousands of years at this point after Noah has occurred. So there's either thousands of years of of eternal conscience conscious torment, and then it's suddenly that that life form is expunged by God, or it's immediate annihilation, or as first Peter 3 seems to indicate pretty strongly, it's eternal conscious torment forever and ever. Because you've uh and there there are plenty of uh of non-Christians who've argued against this, um, against the idea of hell being everlasting by simply saying, well, temporal number of sins, a finite number of sins, can't be pun punished eternally. However, as we talked about earlier as well, when you sin against an infinitely holy God, you're going to suffer an infinite number of or an infinite amount of his wrath and indignation and justice in hell.
Jeff:That's right. And in on this podcast both both the scholar you wrote and the podcast, they indicate that eternal conscience conscious torment calls into question the goodness of God and the character of God. And I love what R. C. Sprohl said. He said the problem of hell is not the badness of God, the problem is the goodness of God. Because of the goodness of God, he punishes illdoers in hell. Of course, Dr. Sprohl R. C. believed in uh uh eternal conscious torment. Um I mean I I I I don't know. It's uh it's uh the burden of proof is certainly on those who would deny the historic uh teaching of uh of hell.
Travis:Yeah, I think you know the same thing uh D.A. Carson mentions not directly but indirectly in his book, The Goodness Um of God. And in the book, he argues that uh the problem of evil is not the problem. That the problem that we really should address is the problem of God's goodness. Because man as a sinner is not uh entitled to heaven in any way, shape, or form. Man as a sinner is entitled to hell. So evil hell is not an issue. God's mercy and his grace and his uh loving kindness toward us, those are the big questions we should be asking. The question we should not be asking is is hell really forever? We really should be asking, is heaven really forever? Because that's what we don't deserve. We all deserve forever in hell, but not forever in heaven. I think ultimately, Jeff, what this probably comes down to I've not listened to Cameron talk about this, I've not read enough of Fudge to see this anywhere, but I think it ultimately comes down to one's doctrine of God.
Jeff:That's right.
Travis:At the at the most foundational level, it comes down to who is God? Is your God more defined by his love and his grace, or is he more defined by the way Scripture defines him, where holiness and wrath and justice are just as important as grace, mercy, and forgiveness. There's no one overarching attribute that's more important than the others. But we do I think it is it's interesting nonetheless to see that the only attribute of God that's repeated in triplicate form twice in Isaiah 6 and Revelation 4 is holiness.
Jeff:That's right. The thrice holy God.
Travis:Yeah, if God is holy, that means we are not, and though therefore we are separated from him forever without Christ.
Jeff:No, that that that's exactly right. And and you know, this at the end of the day, this isn't about Kirk Cameron. Uh this is just about what the Bible teaches, isn't it? Even this podcast, we're not so much addressing him, we're addressing the doctrine. Uh and uh and we pray that he'll change his mind and we can change our minds as things become clearer. And and uh again, the part the podcast, the first podcast, the one I listened to, it sounded like he was sort of kind of wrestling with this. They still were kind of sound there kind of bouncing us off of each other. I don't know where he is on this. We pray that he'll God will give him the clarity on this. But really, it it is uh the issue is what saith the scriptures. And and a question I have, and I I raised this in my my column, Hell is for real. Um ministerially, how would you how would they preach? How would you preach on hell? Hey, just relax. Uh you're gonna you'll be annihilated if you're you know, you you don't want to cease to exist, but hey, it's not as bad as eternal conscious punishment. I mean, how would you, you know, how how how would you uh preach as Edwards did, the sinners of the hands of anger of God, probably the most famous sermon in the history of our our country in in 1741 that law that God used to bring about the salvation of thousands? And yes, they did. They did cry out, and they did some of them faint. Their strength uh failed them because uh uh of the reality of God's judgment and wrath they were facing outside of Christ. And many thousands came to Christ through the preaching. And again, we're not uh um I mean, I uh what would Satan rather have? Would Satan like, hey, it's uh it's not all no longer in vogue, so we want to be in vogue, or uh Jonathan Edwards?
Travis:Oh, I think he would take it's not in vogue all day and twice on Sunday. Aaron Ross Powell, Jr. It's convinced us of that, right? Yeah, and it's it's interesting to me, I think just the the or a great example rather of the power of Scripture. All reports are when Edwards initially preached, you know better than I would as a as a historian, when he initially preaches sinners in the hands of angry God, he reads it in in a monotone voice. Uh he wasn't you know explosive. He wasn't farm brimstone in its style. Yeah. Um but he just read it from uh a monograph that he had written. Uh so it's interesting just to see the power of the Spirit moving through the proclaimed Word of God, what happens in the lives of people, and you get this massive great awakening that takes place, as you mentioned, because this sermon just resonates with people.
Jeff:And we're still talking about the sermon today, all the these years later.
Travis:And now I want to Yeah, now almost 400 years. Yeah.
Jeff:Yeah. And we're we're almost done here. But I want to read just a section of the Trevor Burrus.
Travis:300 years. My math is bad, so I went to seminary.
Jeff:I went with the University of Georgia, we don't do math over here either, so and and seminary. So but just listen, listen to this. Just listen to these words. I mean it's hard it's hard to read them. I mean, and um here's Edward's depiction of God's wrath. It's just unforgettable. Um He preached that God holds you over the pit of hell. Much as one holds a spider or some loathsome insect over the fire, abhors you and is dreadfully provoked. His wrath towards you burns like fire. He looks upon you as worthy of nothing else but to be cast into the fire. He is a purer eyes than to bear you in his sight. You are ten thousand times as abominable in his eyes as the most hateful, venomous serpent is in ours. You have offended him infinitely more than ever a stubborn rebel did his prince, and yet it is nothing but his hand that holds you from falling into the fire every moment. It is to be ascribed to nothing else that you did not go to hell last night, that you were suffered to wake awake again in this world after you closed your eyes to sleep, and there is no other reason to be given why you have not dropped into hell since you arose this morning, but that God's hand has held you up. There is no other reason to be given why you have not gone to hell since you have sat there in the house of God, provoking his pure eye by your sinful, wicked manner of whole of attending his solemn worship. Yea, there is nothing else that is to be given as a reason why you do not this very moment drop down into hell. O sinner, consider the fearful danger you are in. It is a a great furnace of wrath, a wide and bottomless pit, full of the fire of the wrath that you are held over in the hand of that God whose wrath is provoked and incensed as much against you as against many of the damned in hell. You hang by a slender thread with the flames of divine wrath flashing about it, and ready every moment to singe it and to burn it asunder. That's not in vogue, is it? No. But that's a a teasing out of God's holiness and God's wrath against sinners and what we deserve and yet we get heaven. And uh I guess I would ask those who reject uh the historic Orthodox doctrine of God's eternal punishment, how would you preach this?
Travis:Could you preach this? No. The answer is no. Very simply no. There's there there are far too many texts in scripture that would have to be moved around or skipped. Uh there's too much in um there's too much in the teaching of Jesus that would have to be just forgotten. Um so uh uh you know, advice to pastors, how do you preach on hell? Follow the example of Christ. Follow the example of the apostles. Um lay out the reality of law versus gospel. Lay out the reality of Romans 1. Uh the reality of Jesus teaching on the afterlife. If again, if you believe him on heaven, you have to believe him on hell, uh, or else he's schizophrenic or a liar. Um and then you have um you know, just the text in First Peter, the text that you quoted um earlier, that just you just have to forget or or bypass or somehow explain away as man's opinion written into the text. And then we have all sorts of problems. Um so you know, advice to pastors, preach the reality of the word, preach the reality of hell, the reality of heaven, that hell is a real place where people who die without Christ will spend uh being tormented for eternity. Uh, you know, and it and it is a very heartbreaking thing. It should not be something that when a sinner dies, we rejoice. Uh this is not the opposite of Clarence getting his wings, uh, where every time a bell rings, an angel gets his wings, and Jimmy Stewart says, Attaboy, Clarence, you know, when the unbeliever dies, we're not ringing the bells, and attaboy. This is a it's a very real thing. Just in the last few weeks uh or month or so, two leaders of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints have died. Um, two guys that I knew personally, and it's just heartbreaking to know that on their deathbeds they thought one second before they died, they thought, I'm about to open my eyes and see Christ. And they opened their eyes and they heard Christ say, Depart from me, you worker of iniquity. Enter now into eternal torment. That's heartbreaking isn't strong enough. There's not a strong enough word in English to describe that. Uh and if we don't take this reality um with seriousness, there's really no way to take the reality of heaven with seriousness.
Jeff:No, that that is well said. Let it break our hearts and provoke us to take this good news that men who walked in darkness, the men who walked in darkness have seen a great light. And that light is Christ. Thank you for listening to this podcast of the Baptist Courier and Courier Publishing. Be sure to follow us on all social media platforms, give us a five-star review, and send any question you want us to consider to Courier Conversations at gmail.com. If you prefer to watch our conversations, check us out on YouTube by clicking the link in the description.
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