Courier Conversations
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Courier Conversations
Josh Powell: SBC Presidential Candidate
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In this interview, Josh Powell—senior pastor of Taylors First Baptist Church and candidate for president of the Southern Baptist Convention—joins Courier Conversations for a wide-ranging discussion on faith, leadership, and the future of the SBC.
Powell shares his personal journey into ministry, his South Carolina roots, and the experiences that shaped his pastoral calling. He addresses recent social media criticism, clarifies his 2020 article on race, discusses evangelism and baptism metrics, and explains why faithfulness to Scripture—not pragmatism—must guide Southern Baptist life.
The conversation also explores cooperation, discipleship, the Great Commission, and what Powell believes Southern Baptists must reclaim to move toward unity and health in the years ahead.
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Welcome to Career Conversations. I am Jeff Robinson, your host, and with me is my co-host, as usual, Travis Kearns. And we have an old friend with us. And by that I don't mean he is old in age, or maybe you are. I don't know, Josh. But we have Josh Powell with us, who is a senior pastor at uh Taylor's First Baptist Church, and of late is a uh candidate for the uh president of the Southern Baptist Convention, and that's what we want to talk about today. Josh, welcome among us.
SPEAKER_02:Hey, good to be here. Good to be here.
Jeff:We've known Josh I've known Josh uh about 26 years now. I think he was one of the first people I met at Southern Seminary. It may have been church in Allison, because we were two of the only Southern families at this church in Louisville. And so uh South Carolina and Georgia came together. As I recall, we probably talked about Georgia and South Carolina football and lots of uh things related to the SEC. I'm guessing.
Travis:I'm sure. That was probably more of a one-sided conversation, I would guess.
Jeff:Well, we're not here to talk about that today. No, Josh uh has uh been nominated for president of the SBC, and uh uh we we are we are thrilled about that, uh you being a South Carolina boy. So just just to start off, uh give us just a a two or three minute biography. Tell us about yourself, you're a South Carolina born and bred and been here most of your life, uh I know, and pastored here, uh two churches at least for many years now. Uh just tell us about Josh Powell.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, absolutely. I appreciate it, Jeff. Appreciate you being on here. Travis, another uh longtime friend from North Greenville Days. So I actually know Travis longer than I've known you. Yeah, we've known each other the longer we've known our wives. Yes, that's actually true. So uh been around, so yeah. I appreciate you guys having me on and having this discussion. I uh born and raised in Lexington, South Carolina, which is in the midlands of the state, just outside of Columbia on the western side. Um actually I'm from a little mill uh town, a little mill village, basically, uh Redbank, South Carolina. So born and raised there, my father is a pastor. He was the associate pastor. When I was born, he actually was the uh pastors uh at First Baptist Church at Gilbert. When I was three, we moved back to Redbank, or he moved back to Redbank Church, which is where he grew up. So Redbank Baptist Church there in Lexington. Uh he was associate pastor for I think 14, 15 years, and then he was the pastor when the uh other when the head pastor uh retired, he became the pastor almost 34 years he was there. So they still live in the same house that uh grew up in. They're still there in Red Bank, and my dad is now pastoring another church in Lexington. He retired. He actually came to my church for about two years, and that was all he could stand, and he went back into ministry and pastoring. So I grew up there. Uh my grandfather was uh also a pastor, so he was a pastor of a little rural rural church in uh Lexington County. So I grew up with a grandfather and a father, both uh pastors, and grew up in the church. Never was there a time that I didn't hear or know the gospel. Uh and uh and that included knowing that I was a sinner, included recognizing that. So at an early age, I expressed to my father that I wanted to trust the Lord and be baptized. And uh he I remember he made me go by and speak to uh about five men in our church. He just listed them out to me, and I was like seven years old. It was incredibly intimidating. But they uh he wanted to make sure that I wasn't doing it just because I was the preacher's kid. So had to go speak to them and they all affirmed it. And I remember my father baptized me and grew up there in the church. Um I uh really devoted my teenage years to playing basketball, playing sports, to be honest. Um, in church, always in church, never rebellious, uh, but always really focused on that. So I went to Lexan High School, played basketball there uh at Lexan High School, and all I ever wanted to do was play basketball. I went to uh had a dream of getting a scholarship. That was the big deal to me. I had I finally uh I graduated, got one, went to play, and I lasted at the schools, a little small school in in North Georgia. I lasted there for one semester and I quit. Um, you know, had kind of my dreams were were realized, and then I just became more and more miserable, really. Uh quit at a at Christmas tournament, really, and just came back home. Uh I went to work at, you know, uh a business in a business that uh has just stayed the course of time and taught me a ton. That was blockbuster video. Um I went to work there and be kind, rewind. That's right. And uh really had no direction, really trying to figure out what the Lord wanted me to do. It was that summer that I went with my church. Uh that was I asked for some reason, got no idea, asked to be a chaperone for the student ministry to go to summer camp. It was at Jekyll Island, Georgia, and Dawson McAllister was preaching. And if y'all remember the early 90s, Dawson was pretty edgy, and uh he just put it real plain and simple and let it have it. And he uh pointed me to 2 Timothy 3, 16, and uh all it's all scriptures inspired, and then it goes down and it says, Now preach the word, right? And so Spirit used that to say, This is what I'm calling you to do. Um, there and so from the word through the spirit, preach the word will say, This is what I want you to do. So surrender my uh my uh life to the full-time ministry. I wanted to go to North Greenville because North Greenville had just become a four-year institution, and uh I was actually it was this was like August 5th, uh August 7th, I drove up to North Greenville. Now, this is back in the days of paper, um, you know, not not electronic, anything. And so your your application for school has to be in in April. And uh I was August 7th. School started in two weeks. And I went up there and uh talked to the admissions and they wouldn't let me in. Said I can't do it. I said I got to. He said, Well, the only chance you got is to go meet the president. So I went up and met the president, Dr. Jimmy Epteen at the time, and begged him, and he put the whammy on me a little bit, and then he said, make it happen. And uh so I enrolled at North Greenville, did my uh four years there, met my wife there. We uh got married in 1998. Uh she graduated in 2000. I worked at a local church here. 2000 we moved to Southern Seminary and uh did my M Div at Southern Seminaries where I met you, Jeff, um moved up there, and uh did my M Div in 2003. Um my wife had helped me get through seminary. I had several jobs. She had one. We were trying to put it together, had helped me get through, but we were ready to start a family committed for her to stay home. So in 2003, I uh graduated in May. My first child was born in June, and I became pastor of a small church. 37 people voted on me at uh First Baptist Faredale, just in Jefferson County, um south of Jefferson County. Um so I was there from 93 uh 2003 till 2009, and um gosh, just a great time. Like I said, 37 people voted on me. I think you know we saw the Lord bless and and do some amazing things there. I actually hired a guy, I love him to death, Josh Green, hired him my first month there as my part-time student minister. When I left, they named him pastor. He's still pastoring that church and it's still a faithful, uh, a faithful church. So left there in 2009. Alice and I were committed to uh to not only ministry, but I always wrestled with wanting to pastor and or train pastors. And so uh we had an opportunity to train pastors in uh South Asia, and so we became independent missionaries for five years and set up a school in South Asia, um, had a house there and everything, and and had our family back and forth going to South Asia and started a school for pastors and trained those pastors really with a with a discipleship model of mentorship. So we had trained 15 and then they set up a plan for them to train one another, you know, and we still monitor that. I still still go and still thankful for that opportunity. Did that for five years. Um and then in 2014, uh I accepted the call to come back to Lexington County to pastor a church, Lake Murray Baptist Church, that my home church had planted and started in '82. Lake Murray had struggled. In fact, I I say this uh First Baptist Faredale and Lake Murray, I came to both of them when they were really at low points. In fact, both of those churches, I followed a pastor who that didn't end well at either one of those, Fairedale or Lake Murray. It didn't end well. And both of them wrote books and about how it ended, and they weren't necessarily positive about the church. So uh I went into both of those, and man, just really thankful for those opportunities. The Lord blessed again, saw uh incredible growth, not only in you know only in people coming, but also in the hearts of people. So 37 people voted on me at Faraday, 137, I remember this, at at Lake Murray. So, you know, then we grew into a uh mid-sized church, and then uh in 2021, I served in the state convention to some other stuff. In 2021, really 2020, um uh Taylor's first Baptist, uh the chairman of the search team came to me on March the 9th, I believe, um, and called me. I had not put in a resume, I had not had no aspirations to leave. Lake Murray was had to become home. It's a Lexington County. My I had built-in, you know, babysitters. Uh we have four we had four kids by that time, and uh everything was great. Um no desire to leave. He called me and said, I need to talk to you. Little did I know they had gotten my name. And uh within you know two minutes of the conversation he said, You're our next pastor. We've we're convinced as a search team. And I was like, Oh, okay. Um so that's big. And then March 9th or March 11th is when that was, I think it was March 13th. If I'm getting those dates wrong, I'm I'm I'm not, but I think it was March 13th, it's like a Thursday. So this was like Monday, Tuesday, and then Thursday of that week, everything shut down. Uh you had the masters was canceled, March Madness was canceled, all in the same day. Everything just shut down, and so it everything just changed, you know. And at the same time, I was president of the state convention that year. So it was not a good time for me to leave, and I told them no several times. Fast forward to uh the end of the year, my responsibility as president uh culminated in the annual meeting. We had it was COVID year. We had our annual meeting, it was a one-day event. At the end of that meeting, 9 30, I'm on my way home. I got a text message from the chairman of the search team again that said, uh, all right, you're finished with your duties. Can we talk again? And so the Lord had worked and moved to where February 2021 I came to Taylor's First Baptist. Um, which Taylor's First Baptist had also, uh Travis knows the history of that church really well, had also struggled over the last, you know, uh ten years, really declining in numbers. And so uh the Lord's been faithful, putting me in those places. So those are the three churches I pastored. My wife Allison, her father uh is a pastor in Lexington County, her grandfather, I think he pastored almost every rural church in Lexington County. He was also a bi-vocational pastor, having worked at Fort Jackson, and then also as a pastor. So both of us coming from generations of ministry in our lives, and um and then we've had we've got four kids, my two oldest. One just graduated uh from college, the other one's uh plays baseball at North Greenville. Uh my daughter is a senior, all three of them by God's grace, and we'll see where the Lord leads. Uh the oldest one is in seminary now. Uh the next one has prof has gone into Christian studies at North Greenville, and and same route Travis and I went and wants to go to seminary as well. And then my daughter uh would love to be a missionary. She's going to spend the summer with the IMB this summer. So I'm really thankful. I got a 10-year-old, we call him the straggler, but he brings every bit of life to the family and uh looking forward to seeing what the Lord does with him also. Yeah, good. That was a good snapshot on the bottom. That's great. Yes, that's great.
Jeff:No, that's uh that's that's good. And Josh is actually instrumental in me being here. Uh back in 2022, you get called me one day and said, uh, you know, the Baptist crew is looking for president and editor. Uh I'd been actually left by church and just praying about coming doing something just like this. And so the Lord just worked it out. And uh and uh I'm glad uh glad it did. So uh so yeah, we uh I I I appreciate that.
Travis:Yeah. Yeah, so your announcement was made as of our recording a couple of days ago. Um and it's been a big splash on social media. Yeah, yeah. Uh obviously, as these nominations tend to be. So one of the things we want to talk about is first of all, kind of give us your take on social media generally, right? Because you're not super active on social media, so uh tell us what you think about that just generally.
SPEAKER_02:I I have uh I have never um had a Facebook page. My wife does, Allison does.
Travis:I've never had I never had establish Jeff's Had MySpace.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, Jeff had MySpace to that. Josh, he probably AOL, right? Yeah. So I never I've never had a social media presence. I do have a Twitter account, but I've just I rarely use it. In fact, uh back last fall, Alice and I were praying through some things. I said, you know what, this is just not helpful to me. Um and so I'm not I'm not active on any of them. And and I recognize, you know, I recognize in some point that it's a good place to get your voice out there, but it's just not a place that I that I join in or am a part of. And sometimes when I do peek into it, I'm like, ooh, let me get back out of here. Um and I I think, you know, uh uh uh with that being said, I just feel like um it's just not a place that's healthy for me or or other the Lord the Lord knows my heart on it, but I just want to make sure my voice is heard, but it's just not something that I dive into. So anybody that's trying to reach me through social media, again, I I and back in the fall, Allison, my wife and I, thinking about it, praying about it, I thought about deleting my account, knowing that it may be that I be nominated for president. It hadn't been decided yet. I decided not to because I didn't want anybody to think I'm hiding something, you know what I'm saying? Or or just ending it. So it's there, my handle's still there, but I rare I rarely, in fact, I can't remember the last time I checked it. Now people send me stuff. Um I'm not always happy about it, but people still do that, but I I I rarely check it or am on there.
Travis:Yeah. So one of the big um pushbacks, I guess, uh especially yesterday as we're recording this uh on social media was about an article you wrote for the courier in 2020, if I remember correctly, uh that dealt loosely with race relations. Sure. In the U.S. Sure. There was some pretty significant pushback. It was almost like this, oh, we've uncovered this big bombshell of a story. Um why don't you tell us about that? I know you want to talk about that a little bit, so tell us about it.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I'm not like obviously uh 2020 was an interesting year for me. Um and for all of us. You know what I'm saying? I mean, let's if we're we don't want to rewrite history, that was a wild time. Um and if I remember correctly, and and uh y'all may know the details of it, uh that article was in was in May. Um and and I was state convention president at the time. And so uh when COVID shutdowns happened and everybody's scrambling on what to do, and we're meeting as a church, but kind of kind of in uh weird ways and strange things we're doing, uh May was at the height of it. Um and so I was state convention president, they were asking me to organize a lot of things, and that article in particular came uh uh because of an act that happened in the South in Georgia. Um I wrote that article after Ahmad Arbery, uh uh, which I think Ahmad Arbery happened like in February, March, but the video didn't come out until May, early May, I believe. Um and so I watched that video and it struck a chord with me. Ahmad Arbery struck a chord with me because I'm from the South. I grew up with people like Ahmad Arbery and people like the fellows who were in the truck, you know what I'm saying? And and and that kind of both both cultures. Um and I grew up in that. So after Ahmad Arberry happened, I was on a Zoom call with about 35 pastors, and they all were upset about this. I mean, if you remember the Arberry case, you can look it up. He was running through a neighborhood and and three guys suspected something, got in the truck, went after him, and ended up shooting him. Um but all three of those guys, if I'm if I'm not mistaken, I haven't kept up with the case. All three of those guys were convicted or in jail and are in jail.
Travis:And running through a neighborhood for exercise. Yes, that's right, running through neighborhood for exercise.
SPEAKER_02:I'm like, this could have happened to anybody down here in the South. And so this hit home to us. I was on a call with pastors, and we uh were just like, we need to speak. I mean, it fell to me as a leader, uh SBC SCBC president. I said, I'll I'll speak. And and um I told them kind of what I would do, and and they said, that sounds great, do it, and we'll support you. So I didn't think anything controversial about it at all. I mean, uh and look, I I'm I try not to put myself in any of those categories that I consider worldly categories, and and that's why maybe maybe it's not maybe maybe it's not the best way to handle it, but I don't like I don't like the word woke because uh that is speaking of worldly categories, right? And so I'm looking at the Bible, and 2 Corinthians 5 says, I consider no one according to the flesh. And and so I'm trying to think, how do I handle this as brothers and how do we help those who who are there? If I'm writing that article now, I probably would say some things differently. I really would. I probably use words. I mean, I remember I think uh using the like a word like empathy. I think I use that word, empathize. Uh Dr. Moller just did his briefing just yesterday, which I think is February 3rd, um, on this, and that word has completely changed. I mean, I guarantee you I'm not using it the way Hillary Clinton just said to use it in her in her in her uh what was it, Wall Street Journal, the New York Times op-ed. Atlantic, I think it was the same. Yeah, the Atlantic, that's right. Um I I I'm fine with, I agree with what Joe Rigney's written in The Send of Empathy. I think it has been politicized and abused. So I definitely would not use that word. Do I still denounce white supremacy? Absolutely. And it's like the horseshoe, right? I denounce anything, any system that considers people according to the flesh. Um I want to denounce white supremacy and I denounce BLM. I think both of those should be set aside. Uh I wanna I wanna I wanna um honor what the scriptures say and be bound up by the word of God. And that's why I don't shy away from words like reconciliation. Because in that same 2 Corinthians 5 passage, we are ministers of reconciliation. And so what does that mean for my brothers and sisters? How do I help? I read through that article again. I hadn't even thought about that article in a long time, and I read through it again when somebody sent that to me, and I just said, I think it's Bible. I'm not trying to uh I mean if the Holy Spirit needs me to repent of anything, I will. But I feel like I'm just trying to, in that time, in that context, I was trying to help and speak to my brothers and sisters who were asking me to as the leader at the time. So um But that article was actually written prior to George Floyd. That article was written for the courier. Yeah. Uh for as president, one of the things you have, one of the great honors we have as South Carolina Baptist Commission president, is every month we get a we get a write-up in the courier. That's right. And so that is due on the 15th. I wrote that article to be put in the courier that month, and I may have been late with it or whatever, but I wrote it to be put in the courier. And uh that was my whole intention with it. Um I did not know, I did not know that uh Baptist Press pulled it on the 29th, which if you look at the dates, the 29th goes with uh I think George Floyd was the 25th. So the 29th goes with after that. So they pulled it after the George Floyd thing and used it then. That was put in Baptist Press. I had nothing to do with that. That was I had written this about Ahmad Arbery before that time. So uh that's how that article got in there in in first person. Uh I mean, it's not about George Floyd at all. I hadn't bought into that narrative. I think, I mean, I'll be honest, uh I'm not trying to ruffle any feathers. I think George Floyd, you know, died of an overdose. You know what I'm saying? And I think that's been proven over and over again. So I don't I I'm not buying into that. I'm just simply was at the time, some of the pastors in our state, good leaders, were hurting over the issue that happened with Ahmad Arbory because it hit close to home with who we are. They asked me to write about it and speak, and I said, yes, I am. Fell to me as the leader to do it, and I did. So that's how that article came about.
Jeff:Well, another another issue that's been raised, it seems to be raised with every every election in the SVC is numbers. Yeah. Numbers of baptisms in churches. And you know, the critique is always, well, you know, my church has ex attendance and or ex-membership numbers, and we baptize X numbers issue this percentage. And uh one of the things you've been critiqued again on social media is well, their their baptism numbers are low relative to the other can't another candidate. What do you how do you address that? And is that it how how should we understand conversion and numbers and and and things of that nature? Absolutely, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:First of all, our baptism numbers are low. I mean, who I don't know of a pastor who said who would ever say, I want to uh uh I want to baptize less. Man, I'm hoping that God would see fit to honor the preaching of the word. I preach through scripture expositionally. I seek to uh both you guys have heard me preach. I'm I'm I'm making a call. I believe the gospel includes response, and I'm begging people to respond. Um and my prayer is that the Lord would send more believers, send more to repent and believe uh through the preaching of his word, not just at my church, but at every church. Um man, I bemoan any any idea that uh uh you would think that I would think I that's good. I want it to be better. I will say positively on our side, coming out of what our church came out of, it's been kind of a rebuilding piece for us to get back to where we need healthy, because reaching people with the gospel is preaching of the word, primarily first and foremost, the preaching of the word. Reaching people with the gospel is that, um, but it's also mobilizing our People to have gospel conversations, and we're really trying our best to mobilize those, kind of building into that, into the culture and life of our church. So I would hope that it's more. I can say positively that I just was told this morning before I came, we got 25 waiting to be baptized right now. Uh put before our team that we need to have a hundred baptisms as a goal as our church. And it's the first time we've ever set a goal for baptisms, which could be arguable in and of itself. For me, that means it's pushing our people to have more gospel conversations and more opportunities to share and really putting that before them. If we baptize triple digits, it would be the first time this church has ever baptized triple digits, maybe once uh, you know, some time ago. But but man, just praying for more. Now, on the other side of it, man, I would hope that wouldn't be a qualifier either way for any kind of position in the SBC. I hope the heart would be, do you believe the gospel? Do you call people to repentance in faith? And do you believe in the warrant of faith? And do you do you recognize that God is sovereign over salvation and we are responsible for for our response to that gospel that has come and we need to receive it as that good seed that falls on good soil? That should be first and foremost in primary. But even if somebody says I had 500 baptisms or 600 baptisms, that doesn't necessarily mean for me that everything's great. I don't, I mean, I'm starting to question pragmatism on some side or re-baptism or your view of this. I'm starting to, you know, I I just I just don't think it should be a, and I I'm maybe that's self-serving, but I don't think it should be any kind. I'm not looking at that and going, you know what, they're disqualified.
Travis:I think it brings up a bigger conversation too. I know Josh, you and Jeff will both agree with this. You see in the book of Acts through all the gospel presentations that the number one common denominator among all those conversations with the apostles is a call to action. So the gospel is presented, but the number one common issue is a call to action. But nowhere in Acts, nowhere in the New Testament do you see the apostles or any other persons in the New Testament trying to work to convict people or to convert people. Right. It's the Christian and especially the pastors' main concern to present the gospel and call people to repentance. It's the Spirit's role to convict and convert. Anytime we put ourselves into either the conviction role or the conversion role, we're trying to or we're saying, I think, effectively, we're better than the Spirit in doing these things. So when we yeah, when we talk about baptism numbers, you know, Taylor's is my home church. I have never seen Taylor's as evangelistic as it has been since you've been there. Well, basically. Maybe for a couple of years in the early 2000s, but otherwise, I've never seen it more evangelistic. I've never seen more people or heard from more people that I grew up with talking about wanting to share their faith. If that's not the mark of a faithful pastor, I don't know what is. Yeah. Well, thank you. So b baptism numbers, I think we have to be very, very cautious because if we're going to use baptism numbers for any sort of measurement for any office or even any pastoral job, uh church staff role, anything like that, we're gonna become legalists pretty quickly. Yeah. You know, you didn't get a hundred or your ratio wasn't at least ten to one or better, so therefore you're disqualified. That that's nowhere a scriptural issue.
SPEAKER_02:And I do think, Travis, on that same note, I think sharing the gospel is absolutely vitally a part. Evangelism is a part of what is a healthy church. It has to be. Um at the same time, so is discipleship. So I've seen a lot of churches bragging about a large number of baptisms, yet their weekly average attendance has dropped. You know what I'm saying? So how are you going to brag about this many, and yet you've got less people coming every week? So we want to see uh people come to faith, baptizing them, and we want to teach them to observe all things. And so there is the the dual aspect of the Great Commission that I hope that uh uh that we have at Taylor's, and that's our striving. That's what we're striving for. Yeah.
Jeff:Um, I mean the Bible scripture never puts a quota on the Holy Spirit. Right. You never say, well, we have to have this many baptisms, this many conversions, whatever. Really, you don't see that until the Second Great Awakening in America, when when pragmatism, as you mentioned, pragmatism kind of comes into the church, and Southern Baptists drive for efficiency in the uh after World War II because we outproduce Germany, and so we can outproduce the other denominations was sort of the thought, which we know, as Jonah put it, salvation belongs to the Lord, and uh and we have to trust that.
Travis:And so Yeah, you would hope, you know, in in modern SBC life, uh, if we're using these sorts of quotas or these talking points, then the prophet Jeremiah would never be included because he preached forty years and never saw a conversion. Jesus might not be included because one of his twelve disciplees completely denies him three times in a row within a twelve-hour period right before the crucifixion. Right. So you get uh you get all these issues. Paul's put in jail, uh, all these concerns, which I know you've faced that as well. Sure. Uh all these issues that come up but are never set as qualifiers. But in the SBC, we've tended to, over the last 15 to 20 years, especially, become infatuated with numbers.
SPEAKER_02:Here's here's my here's my concern, and this is the way I see it. Like you have uh the the parable of the the good soils. Now in the South you can go soil or you can go souls. And so I'm gonna go soil here. Um the parable of the good soils, and you have the four. You have the four soils, right? And and you have that seed which is the gospel, and uh you have the hard, you have the the rocky, you have the weed infested, and then you have the good soil. What I find fascinating, and and I do not believe hermeneutically I think parables have one main point that Jesus is getting to, and obviously he has the point of receiving the good news and not let not being hardened to it, not letting other things snatch it away or burn it up. Receiving the good news. But there is a side point that I like to make there. That sower is throwing seed everywhere. I mean, it it seems reckless. He's throwing his seed on the path, he's throwing it in the rocks, he's throwing it in the weeds, he's throwing it everywhere, and by God's grace, some of it, some of it lands on the good soil. And so I see my job as as you know, the Lord has blessed me uh to be in the ministry, which is a gift to me. My job is to sow the seed anywhere and everywhere, and then trust the Lord that it lands on the good soil and is received. So, you know, um man, I wish they they were better. I pray God would work and uh I pray that He would He would send revival among us. And not just us, any all of our churches, in the upstate and the SBC.
Travis:So you sound like a guy you're saying, Josh, that you trust the scriptures, which anybody other than a conservative wouldn't say. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Well, and and again, on I'm I'm and I know that I don't want to just seem like a cop-out. I truly try to live my life like I live my life before an audience of one. My my dad used to say that to me. I I the Lord is who I'm I'm looking to honor. And so I try not to get caught up on and I I don't pay maybe I should. I don't pay as much attention to these categories that the world puts on things. I want to be biblical. You know what I'm saying? I want to I want to honor the word. I want to live at peace with everyone. I want to not keep a record of wrong. You know what I'm saying? I want to consider others greater than myself. I want to. I'm not perfect at that. And you can find plenty of people who will testify to that. But I I want to find let the word of God, whether it's on the race issue, whether it's on the gospel issue and how that spread, uh, whether it's on our cooperation and all those things together, I want to let the word of God and the authority of God. I do think it is authoritative and I do think it is sufficient. Let's look to those things. So going back to the race issue, for example, and uh uh CRT, intersectionality, those things are are uh useless world, world kind of uh categories that that shouldn't define us, but it shouldn't stop us from being faithful believers sometimes, you know. Uh it's the same way, it's the same way as the social gospel. Um the social gospel says, you know, do these things and you're you'll be fine. I don't I and that that's ridiculous, obviously. I also want to be mindful of Matthew, where Jesus says, When I was hungry, you gave me food, and when I was thirsty, you gave me drink, and when I was cold, you clothed me. Well done, good and faithful. The least of these you've done unto me. And then he kicks them out because they didn't do those things. I want to be mindful that that a true, faithful follower of Christ is going to care for the poor, is going to desire justice, is going to present mercy, is going to take care of those things that you see needs around, because the Lord has designed good works for us to accomplish it. And so present the gospel. Because it's not a it's not an either-or, it's a both and. It's a both and the gospel goes forth. So uh yeah, I want to be faithful to the word and be be marked by it and let that word determine my categories. So I think go ahead, Jeff.
Jeff:No, we I was gonna say we might have fired William Carey or we might have fired Adam Aaron Judson. Uh they were highly unsuccessful those first few years. So I don't know if we'd have gotten the results out of them we would have uh through the the the the fathers of the modern missions movement. But just kind of shifting gears a little bit, uh what do you see? You've been a Southern Baptist all your life, like like we have, and what do you see as the the primary issues that Southern Baptists face? We know it's lost us and it's a lot, you know, we we we talk about numbers, declining numbers, all that stuff. We hear that a lot, but what do you see as the real issues that uh a presidential uh a successful presidential candidate would need to help this uh denomination address to continue, always, always, always moving toward health?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, that's a good question. Um I do not see myself as uh well let me let me nuance this a little bit. I don't see myself as an agenda-driven candidate for presidency. I'm not looking to push my agenda. If if I have an agenda, I want us to get back to, I think, the very reason we cooperated together. I remember in uh discipleship training, uh we used to call it Mission Friends at Red Bank Baptist Church on Sunday nights. I remember my teacher talking to us about the constitution of the Southern Baptist Convention. And I learned in at like six years old in Mission Friends, and I remember it vividly, I learned at six years old that we have cooperated together for one sacred effort. And I believe, as has been said before, not original with me, that Southern Baptists are at their best when they're laser focused on the Great Commission and the cooperation together to send people to the nations to plant churches and to raise up ministers. And so I think all that we have is designed for that. I believe there has been some sideways energy away from that mission. I'm not saying it's all bad, but I believe uh some of it has taken us away or taken our eyes off the one sac, one sacred effort that we have joined together for uh to reach the nations with the gospel and to train up ministers. That's what I want us to get our eyes back focused on. I really do. I believe that's what draws me to Southern Baptists. That's why my church is heavily invested in this cause. We we realize that to fulfill the Great Commission, we can't do that by ourselves. We are better when we partner together with uh like-minded churches to move forward. Now, that question becomes like-minded. How do we handle those churches that may be different from us? How do we deal with those things? There's a lot of different ways that we can do it. And I'm happy to discuss all of that uh when it comes to it and deal with the issues that face us about cooperation. But but my point is I feel like we when we lose focus, our churches feel scattered, our churches feel homeless. I think they they don't know where to fit in. There's so many pastors I hear from that they say we just want to be about reaching people with the gospel and advancing the gospel. And so how can we get back to that? There's some things we we probably need to do, there's some things we need to focus on, of course, but that's my that's my agenda, Jeff, is to get us back to advancing the gospel and fulfilling the Great Commission together. I can't do that. I don't I don't believe, I don't think any of us believe we can uh we can do that by ourselves. You know what I'm saying? We we need to join together. There's no reason the the church can join together to do it with other churches to reach the nations. And so uh I recognize in Southern Baptist life there's there's um loss of trust in different camps. I recognize there's things that come up, and and again, I'm happy to discuss any of those, but I recognize those things. We need to work together to gain trust back. Some people think it's gotten this way, other think it is gotten this way. So, you know, you go with that mix. All we can do is take it back to the messengers. And I think the messengers have clearly spoken the last few years. And uh I say put it in the messengers' hands. Anything. Let bring it, bring it before it, and let's put it in their hands and let's see what the messengers say. I trust, trust the messengers. As been as as it has been said, uh we uh we uh generally do the right thing. We may not do it quickly, but we generally do the right thing. And so um I also think that uh the leadership in our convention needs to be wrangled by the pastors who love the gospel, love the Great Commission, and love cooperation again. I think uh pastors need to lead out on this and and and uh finding ways to bring our attention back to that, to get pastors back into this one sacred effort that maybe have stepped out for any number of reasons will be a goal or a agenda of mine, I would hope.
Travis:Yeah, it's interesting. You know, the we hear not just this year, but in a number of years in the past, which I know you two guys love talking about dead folks, so we'll go to the past for a second. We've heard, oh, we need a president that will do this, or a president that will do that, or a president that will do the other. But what the Constitution and bylaws, the SBC, gives us is a president who moderates the world's largest business meeting and who appoints a couple of committees. Right. Now, those couple of committees, especially the committee on committees, is vital. Incredibly important, as we saw with the conservative resurgence. It takes a couple of years to get through nominations and on down to the trustee boards, but incredibly important. Um So it's interesting to me that we see calls probably the last eight to ten years, uh maybe a little bit longer, that the president needs to do this, that, or the other when the president really can't do anything other than moderate the business meeting with parliamentarians uh helping, uh aiding and abetting, maybe, um, and appointing uh some committee members. Uh so that's really ultimately about it. Now, you obviously don't want a president who's gonna put in the wrong people on the committee on committees. Moderating the business meeting is a whole different ballgame because you got parliamentary procedure that governs that. Right. However, those committee appointments are the really the the most important thing the president of the SBC can do. So um I'm excited to see what will come. Um I'm glad that you're that you've what you've just said is the case, and that is hey, let's look to the gospel. Let's look to proclaiming the gospel around the world, let's look to proclaim the gospel in our own communities. Uh and the flip side of that coin, let's disciple people because it's not just about, and I don't mean to diminish it, it's not just about evangelism. Right. It's also about discipleship.
SPEAKER_02:That's right.
Travis:We can evangelize all we want, but if we're not discipling, we're missing half of the Great Commission. So uh I'm excited to see what'll happen in the future.
SPEAKER_02:Uh I I am I and you know this about me, you guys know this. I'm proud to be a Southern Baptist. I love what we do. I love I mean, I'm I don't know where else to go. This is these are this is my people, my tribe. I'm proud to be one. I feel like over the last several years, for various and sundry reasons, uh a lot of people want me to feel bad about being a Southern Baptist. They want me to feel bad about where we are and what we've done. And I want to say, no, I'm I'm I'm thankful. Have we had our difficulties? Yes. Have we had our problems? Yes. Um, but I'm thankful still to be a Southern Baptist. I'm thankful still to be be one, and I'm proud of it. And I want us to do that. Uh there's so many people I feel like when there's good news for Southern Baptists, it's bad news for them. And I just that's not a healthy place I want us to be. Um I I want to celebrate that we have missionaries that are being sent out. I want to celebrate that we planted churches through North American Mission Board. I want to celebrate uh our graduates of our institutions. We have great institutions. I want to celebrate those rather than have to have to uh look down upon it.
Travis:Yeah, the six largest theological seminar in the world. Evangelical life, yeah.
Jeff:Yeah. Well one of the things we're hoping to do here at the Baptist Courier in the next five years is kind of help celebrate what has happened among Southern Baptists the last fifty years. Uh the conservative resurgence of the SCC. You're coming upon 2030, which will be the 50th anniversary of the election of Adrian Rogers in 1979-80, uh, that kind of uh elected Charles Stanley in 85 that kind of was the end of liberalism among Southern Baptists. As a way of reminding our people that look where we came from. Look where I mean, God brought about this unprecedented, just like a Southern Seminary, unprecedented shift from uh orthodoxy to liberalism back to orthodoxy. Trevor Burrus, Jr.
Travis:And just as a quick side note, Jeff, I think it's important to note that there are no honest to goodness true liberals. Trevor Burrus, Jr. No.
Jeff:We have an article I told you right now on our computer, I had a friend, a historian friend of mine, write what is a liberal?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
Jeff:Because I've been called a liberal. You probably you'll you're gonna be called a liberal just because uh one was in a uh a para church ministry I work used to work for, which is if they're liberal, we're the I I I don't I I guess I don't know what a liberal is, but but uh and and that's just it. We want to help our people remember where we could be and what God has done and still is doing. Yes, we have we have our issues, we have some uh on secondary issues, we have our debates, and we're always gonna have those. Southern Baptists have always had those. We're strongly convictional people, biblically convictional people. And we're talking about theology, that's a good thing. That's not a bad thing. We could be the Methodists talking about ordaining homosexuals or something like that, but we're not. By God's grace, but if things had gone differently in 1980, we could be talking about that. We would we wouldn't be the three of us wouldn't be sitting at this table.
SPEAKER_02:No, f I m I am, you you all of us are. We're children of the of the researchers. Absolutely. And and I I say that with a father and a grandfather who rightfully, willfully, did not go to seminary on purpose because they were they were liberal and they felt like they did not want to go. And so I'm saying that as someone who had the privilege and opportunity to go to a seminary that was conservative and faithful, and so so did y'all. And so we're children of that. Now, this generation, uh obviously that that generation's passed on, and now we're recognizing this next and we're learning how to live together. I I want us to understand that our differences are not theological in the sense of liberalism. I don't know of any Southern Baptist that does not believe in the inerrancy of Scripture. That's right. I don't know of any of them. Maybe some. Maybe some. I'm not trying to say. You may know of some. I do. I don't know them. I don't know of anyone that does not believe in the authority of Scripture. They may interpret it differently than me, and I have the personal privilege to tell them they're wrong. But but I don't know anybody that wouldn't argue for the authority of Scripture. Um, so uh, and there may be some out there, don't get me wrong, but I don't know them. And and I do believe that we've I do have friends that have philosophical differences of how we solve our issues and our problems. That's where I see the beauty of our June annual meeting. The the messengers speak. And I trust the messengers, I believe in them. I feel like they do the right thing. I always leave that meeting proud. I go into that meeting scared to death, not knowing what was gonna happen, the world's gonna explode. I leave the meeting saying, you know what, we're a bunch of lovable people. I love Southern Baptists as a joy, joyful meeting, and we come out going, I got a lot of great friends, I wouldn't want to be anywhere else, Caesar. This is my place. And so um we do have philosophical differences. We need to hash out what's best for us moving forward, but we don't do that out of hatred or, you know, destruction of each other. I think we do it out of just, hey, let's talk about it. Let's see what we can do. And then we send it to the messengers. Man, if you want it, take it and let them vote. Let's talk about it, and then let's see what happens. And so that's a beauty it's the beauty of our system.
Jeff:Yeah, I think when you have 10,000 people together who believe the inerrancy, inspiration, and full authority of Scripture, they're eventually going to get it right.
SPEAKER_02:And it's a phenomenon. It's not known in this world.
Jeff:No. I'm I'm thankful to be a Southern Baptist too, and that's why we want to celebrate uh the 50th anniversary of uh conservative surgeons and just remind people of where we are and what God has done and what he continues to do. Well, Josh, we appreciate you being on with us today. Uh we'll be praying for you and Allison as you work through this. I know how I know how uh being a pastor a long time myself, how ministry affects the wives. Uh but uh you know, and and uh we're we're excited about having our guy from South Carolina, hopefully, Lord Willie, uh, will be the the the candidate who emerges as the next president. We would love nothing better than that. And so uh you know, we we look forward to seeing what the Lord does in these next what how many months are we out? Five months out from the convention, whatever it's coming. It feels like it's coming. That's right. Get those hotel room reservations made now, folks. But uh so uh anyway, uh thank you very much, and uh we'll look forward to covering this story further. And we'll be talking to you more, Josh, of course, is uh in the in the career and and uh and and uh all the way into June. Thanks, John. Thank you, Jeff. Thank you for listening to this podcast of the Baptist Couer and Career Publishing. Be sure to follow us on all social media platforms, give us the five star review, and send any question you want us to consider at Career Conversations at gmail.com. If you prefer to watch our conversations, check us out on YouTube by clicking the link in the description.
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